A question of ethics in web design:


I need to know the answer to a question regarding the general etiquette of forum style design.

When designing, as an example, a Vbulletin forum skin - how should you begin your project? Do you:

1) Code a style sheet from scratch.
2) Begin with the vBulletin default style xml.
3) Begin with any style as long as the finished product contains none of that styles uniquely authored customisations.

I have designed many skins starting with the popular approx vBulletin style ( which is full of bugs by the way). When I have completed my project, all of the approx customisations: graphics, statusicons, buttons, css markups etc. are gone and replaced with my own.

Is it acceptable to build your skin starting with someones else's style as long as their customisations are removed or replaced; or must you begin from the Vbulletin default style or from scratch with a blank style sheet?

An ethical quandry I must resolve before I begin releasing my designs.
I have seen many people debut a skin on v.org represented as their design, which was clearly recognisable as a superficially altered version of some else's work. That is something I could never do.


B.

Very interesting question...I'm not exactly a designer or a programmer...I've dabbled in both but never really created an entire product on my own.

That said, I personally think that it's okay to start with somebody else's work as a foundation to your own as long as the end product does not mirror theirs.

Now, I'm just referring to design here (not functionality). I don't think it's okay to steal somebody's code for, say, a custom form or a custom menu (like our header at AF) and claim that as your own. If somebody has custom functionality that doesn't come with vB by default, it's not okay to take it and claim it as your own.

You need to be careful whatever you do. Lifting source code from another website and putting it in your own can get your site shut down, or worse.

__________________
...some super-sweet signature

I know that you can use the vB design as the basis for your designs - well you have to, it's the default templates. As for using another theme, like Approx, you'd need to approach the author and ask what the licence is, and whether derivative works are allowed.

__________________

Thanks for weighing in on my question. I agree with what you are saying about style design.


On the other topic you have brought up. I have always had a clear idea of where the boundary lies on that particular issue. I would never even release a skin that came pre-bundled with say: the Advanced forum statistics hack or vBulletin Shoutbox.

But let's face it. People have been lifting other peoples source code and images since the invention of the Internet. It may seem unethical to make use of someone else's - particularly labour intensive, and advanced - coding, graphic, or Flash template - work, but it's done widely and as a practice rather than an exception.

Recently, a forum with a very undesirable theme sprung up who's facilitators lifted almost everything that wasn't nailed down on one of my discontinued sites and made it their own. Even the banner and status icons!
What can I do? None of this was copyrighted material.

I will tell you that these days I digimark all of my proprietary images. Though I give so much away I suppose it doesn't matter.

There really isn't anything you can do to keep someone from saving your graphics to disk and using them as their own, or viewing your source code. Java encryption or any other stop gap measure would only thwart a complete Internet dummy.

Even streaming video can be captured by those with a little tech savvy.

It takes a lot to get a site shut down Ryan. Stealing someone's banner or Navbar style wouldn't do it unless you have the legal machinery and copyright protection to pursue the issue in court. And even that could take years, even with an order to cease and desist.

People like you and I, and our fellow members here at Adminfusion, would consider it impossibly gauche and distasteful to take credit for someone else's work. But have you seen all those sites selling free ware to unsuspecting Internet surfers for 29.00, 49.00, even 100 USD? It's a jungle out there.

Yes, there isn't much we can do to keep people from using our work without authorisation. We can only police ourselves to some degree.

Yeah, you know I love that Header and navbar of your's - and I have looked at the java. But I don't plagiarise. I take pride in my own creativity and originality, and respect that of others.

But I will have a two state navbar by 2008 damn it!...lol


Best regards,


B.

You'd be surprised. I've done it on more than one occasion to other websites who have either lifted our design here at AF or people who have used one of the free skins that we distribute but removed the copyright. I've shut down 3 or 4 websites that have stolen our content. I've done that without spending a dime on legal expenses...It's all a matter of knowing who to contact and what to tell them. More on this in the Supporters forum

Does it work every time? No...but, I'd say 4 out of 5 times, it does work...Like you said, it would be unrealistic for us to actually pursue legal action in most cases, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything about it.

__________________
...some super-sweet signature

I just found Redmatrix' thread on the subject of style design ethics. I would have posted there if I had been aware of it. Sorry Red.


B.

What you can do is create a design in a graphics editor, such as photoshop. Design each element on its own layer, and then once finished, hard code it into a default style.

We may just merge the two.

Its okay. But try to use the search button next time.

__________________
I went to Vegas, and all I got was this Blister. - true story!

I do try to make use of such techniques whenever possible. Fortunately, it is hard to alter, say, the text or custom graphics on a set of two state buttons without diminishing the original product, and most would not know what java to lift from your source code to make them work properly. And of course one cannot edit a Flash.swf, even in the flash8 application itself; and the fla does not need to be on your server. So I suppose we do have some proprietary protections when working with some media.

B.

I have a new question for my esteemed colleagues involving ethics in web design.

I was recently asked by a forum owner, to add a logout button to the user bit of a skin (one of those styles with a left sidebar) who's -well known designer- somehow decided wasn't necessary. There simply existed no logout button, which made a rather attractive custom skin somewhat annoying to members.

You could log out at the bottom of the page through a simple link, but it wasn't very noticeable and most members never realised it.


Here's my question:

I had to do quite a bit of css and php coding to properly place the button and make it work properly.

-Am I entitled to credit my work in the footer?

Also, I recoded the sponsor links in the sidebar to have java pop up windows showing the sponsor site logos.
I made custom buttons and status icons.

I am humble man, but even I am growing tired of labouring in anonymity

Best regards,


B.

i never ask for links or credits and i do alot of custom work. some people do it out of kindness i guess, but its not that important to me. They are paying you.

__________________
PA Forums
Philly Sports
Delaware Online
boomshockalacka